Hi all,
I have a mini refrigerator that I would like to use as a cheese cave. It is a sealed system-- there is no air recirculation, no fan, etc. The metal freezer box is what cools the entire unit. Humidity control has not been an issue. My question is on temperature. At the warmest possible setting, the bottom of the fridge is 48.5 and the top is 50.5. I plan to install a small fan from a computer to circulate the air inside to try and even out the temperature. I was wondering if this is too low to age the cheese properly, or is this an acceptable temperature.
Fine for most cheeses.
Thanks. I figured with the fan the temp would be just under 50F, but wanted to make sure one degree would not be problematic for most cheeses. This is just to tide me over until I construct my full cave & wine cellar in the spring.
Quote from: linuxboy on November 23, 2010, 02:25:54 AM
Fine for most cheeses.
Tagging along, as I am finding my newly acquired standard reefer with recirc fan cycles between 50-55 at lowest setting. I've got a nano, portable US humidifier cycling on and off at highest setting every quarter hour, and as soon as I can scrounge up a hygrometer, I'll be looking to dial in my humidity as best as possible. Once loaded, per Francois' comments and yours, I believe, Linux, I understand the humidity and thermal load issues will be much more manageable.
That said, presuming a fridge only now beginning, would this temp range be alright for tommes, reblochon, possibly beaufort and camembert, acknowledging that each cheese has an ideal, and each differs from the other? Is there some information somewhere, a sort of style-sheet for temp and humidity levels, across many different cheeses? (I also ask this in a somewhat directed way - building an ideal environment for tomme ambient flora health, per earlier discussions - which I realize is a different question).
In that sort of situation you will find that some cheeses will do better than others in different parts of the cave. It will be a trial and error experiment to figure this out. I used to have a similar setup and over time the cooler got to an equilibrium that was sort of in between the best ranges for everything in it, a trade off of sorts. It works, but it's loads of extra work to get really good cheese out as you need to watch every single wheel twice a day to make sure it doesn't need service.
Paul, Francois is absolutely right, you'll get variations in the reefer. If you want to equalize it, what you can do is put a sock in on top and pipe the cold air in through the sock to avoid the temp differentials. Fans and moving air and convection work to some degree, but not all that great.
Quote from: linuxboy on January 05, 2011, 10:44:49 PM
Paul, Francois is absolutely right, you'll get variations in the reefer. If you want to equalize it, what you can do is put a sock in on top and pipe the cold air in through the sock to avoid the temp differentials. Fans and moving air and convection work to some degree, but not all that great.
Sorry for a dumb question - but you mean, a sock, as in a cotton thing, or something like what I've seen for humidity piping? :-[
Yep, the stuff they use in cleanrooms or cheesecaves. The fabric that has a very even dispersion pattern, and the fabric is made out of special plastic.
You can also create a crude version yourself out of regular pvc by drilling holes in it or using drain pipe, but it's tough to manufacture the special sock fabric.
Have you read http://www.silverymooncheese.com/docs/FinalCheeseCaveReport.pdf (http://www.silverymooncheese.com/docs/FinalCheeseCaveReport.pdf)
Quote from: linuxboy on January 05, 2011, 10:56:17 PM
Yep, the stuff they use in cleanrooms or cheesecaves. The fabric that has a very even dispersion pattern, and the fabric is made out of special plastic.
You can also create a crude version yourself out of regular pvc by drilling holes in it or using drain pipe, but it's tough to manufacture the special sock fabric.
Have you read http://www.silverymooncheese.com/docs/FinalCheeseCaveReport.pdf (http://www.silverymooncheese.com/docs/FinalCheeseCaveReport.pdf)
Thanks, Linux, I'll look into it and, uh, forego the gym tube socks.
Yep, I have read the Silvery Moon report, or at least glanced through it - hadn't focused on it yet, as I seem to recall they excluded the upright reefer option from study. I think this is where I at least got the recall of a humidity sock, an image in the report, somewhere?
Edit: Thanks, Linux, pulled it back up, and see the sock discussion. Very much appreciated - you've really been a big help.
@Francois, thank you as well. As much as I love a wide variety of cheeses, my bent is to perfect one thing as well as I can, then move on, having learned by the approach. I think I was hoping for some magic temp/humidity setpoint that was optimal for several cheeses. And I knew that was impossible. So for the time being, I think, tommes it will be.
You want to design the reefer with me? One of my projects this year is to build out a very cheap, portable, aging cave that someone can build to get started with cheesemaking, and a reefer seems like a good option. We could document it, open source the whole thing to make it easier for newbies.
Quote from: linuxboy on January 05, 2011, 11:16:04 PM
You want to design the reefer with me? One of my projects this year is to build out a very cheap, portable, aging cave that someone can build to get started with cheesemaking, and a reefer seems like a good option. We could document it, open source the whole thing to make it easier for newbies.
I think I'd be a pretty cumbersome partner, but sounds fun, and anything I can do to help others along, you bet. You, uh, do realize I asked if the sock we were discussing was a tube thing, from JC Penney's, right? ;D
BTW, printed off the report in its entirety, and settling into it tonight. Thanks for the heads up.
FYI, it was the pdf "Specialty Cheese Making and Aging in Switzerland (http://www.dbicusa.org/documents/Specialty%20Cheese%20in%20Switzerland.pdf)" where I had seen the couple of photos of a "humidity sock." (Page 9). Not sure if you've seen it, Linux, though I suspect this pdf old news to you.
From the Silvery Moon report, saw a mention of my earlier question re: optimal temp/humidity levels for various cheeses; was directed to U. of Guelph's site, as well as Mark Druart's workshop on Affinage. These are all new to me, though again I'd suspect you've all long known of them. The Guelph site (http://www.foodsci.uoguelph.ca/dairyedu/home.html) is a great resource, as is our own Babcock Hall in Madison.
A lot of people use these
http://www.fabricair.com/net/Product/products.asp (http://www.fabricair.com/net/Product/products.asp)
You want engineered materials when dealing with a challenging environment like a cave, they tend to perform better.
Yes, I know Marc, he's a pleasant Frenchie :)
I love the Wisconsin CDR, has some great folks who work there.
Did you need some temp and humidity targets? Which cheeses? And with which molds on the rind?
The best are called ductsox. You can get anti-microbial coated versions for medical applications, which I would recommend. What tends to happen with socks in this applicaiton, if they are attached to a high velocity fan, is the low dew point air off the coil will trigger a humidity signal, which will activate the humidifier. The moist air will then get sucked through the coil and condense, sending most of the water through the drain pan but some will get by, collecting on the sox surface. Once that happens it's mold city. While they are removable and cleanable, best to get the coated version to start.
Linux, I would suggest a custom coil and fan box if possible. You can slow the speed of the air right down, increase total volume and keep the flow laminar around the cave. This simulates a natural cave much more closely. If you do this with a normal cooler you'll freeze the coil in this application, which is not good.
Thx; good points. I've been looking at a few different manufacturers. I agree about the anti-microbials. The anti-microbial are a must also because once you get a growth, they leave a biofilm, which serves as a substrate for future molds to take hold. PITA to get all that stuff off, it sticks like glue.
I think Neville has his boxes custom made all out of SS. You'll need ventilation as well, best to put that on a programmable Honeywell timer. That way you can adjust event timing to suit how much cheese you have in the cave. Remembr to draw the exhaust from low and allow high make up with a descent backdraft damper. Since the exhaust pipe will have condensation in it, use a good sealed fan for corrosive environments, or plan on changing it annually.
I used to have a sweet digital humidity setup that would read a single humidity sensor in the cave and turn on a solenoid and booster pump if it was low to send high pressure water to the misting nozzles. It worked really well, I had worried when I made it that i would get droplets on the cheese but it never happened.
To minimise variations you'll need the fan on constantly in the cave, which isn't very energy savvy. That's why I think it's better to just understand your cave variations and work with them.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 06, 2011, 06:46:51 PM
Linux, I would suggest a custom coil and fan box if possible. You can slow the speed of the air right down, increase total volume and keep the flow laminar around the cave. This simulates a natural cave much more closely. If you do this with a normal cooler you'll freeze the coil in this application, which is not good.
Francois, can you go into this a bit more, for the engineering challenged? What exactly are you proposing?
Quote from: linuxboyDid you need some temp and humidity targets? Which cheeses? And with which molds on the rind?
Linux, further to our offline exchanges and for the benefit of others, if such a thing exists, I was looking for some sort of breakdown that would be considered "classic" for each of several beloved cheeses - my personal bent tends to French styles. It would be great if there was a cataloging, say, of abondance caves.
Guys, both: this notion of socks is very interesting to me, though not sure how one might apply it to a standard reefer. I've got a square cool air inlet in the back, and other than that just this little nano-humidifier. Woke up this morning to a mean temp of approximately 49F and with the humidifier on 1/2 hr, off 15 minutes, well...a pea soup of fog, way too humidified. I could go to a humidistat, but hoping for a more low tech (read: cheaper) alternative.
It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try. From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort). This is an ideal.
If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity. They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled. If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.
You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.
So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil. The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil. When this happens that water freezes. Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice. No air can pass through. All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running. Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether. The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 06, 2011, 10:00:47 PM
It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try. From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort). This is an ideal.
If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity. They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled. If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.
You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.
So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil. The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil. When this happens that water freezes. Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice. No air can pass through. All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running. Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether. The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.
Oh. sorry, got it, Francois, thanks. I was thrown as the context I'm dealing with is a standard, upright kitchen refrigerator, not a walk-in with an evaporative cooler, etc.; though the principles are there, I couldn't see how this might apply to your average consumer refrigerator. I've actually thought of emulating a larger system by building out, at least in my mind, an external humidifier complete with ductwork, humidistat and sock....but I get ahead of myself; I've only recently acquired this free refrigerator, and want to find a cheap means to control both the temp and humidity at a given level.
As I earlier mentioned, want to concentrate on a single variety, and perfect it; so seeking to emulate as much as I can, with this humble refrigerator, a natural cave environment, a terroir if you will, of that cheese. "As much as I can," mind you....for as little as I can.
I misunderstood, I know a "reefer" as a refrigerated container (either 20 or 40 feet long). Lots of small operations use them to age cheese in.
Gotcha, Francois, and thanks for the info, truly (lingo.....former chef, so understand patois and its variants); I'm not being completely ridiculous, anyway, when I say that I am already musing on possibilities, so I personally find the expertise fascinating and valuable. Thanks go to both yourself, and Linux.
If you are lokking for a small cheap humidity solution, try watching for these on Ebay:
http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm (http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm)
or
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml (http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml)
The work by turning a device on or off based on humidity thresh holds. They are expensive if you buy them new form a greenhouse or hydroponics supply but like i said, they come up cheap sometimes on fleabay.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 07, 2011, 01:41:59 AM
If you are lokking for a small cheap humidity solution, try watching for these on Ebay:
http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm (http://www.advancegreenhouses.com/environmental_controls_from_adva.htm)
or
http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml (http://www.littlegreenhouse.com/accessory/controls2.shtml)
The work by turning a device on or off based on humidity thresh holds. They are expensive if you buy them new form a greenhouse or hydroponics supply but like i said, they come up cheap sometimes on fleabay.
Thanks, Francois. I've been combing the web for solutions like these. One thing I've been on the lookout for is the threshold at which these operate - with many at 80-90%, would be problematic for the 95% I was shooting for. But thanks for the links, hadn't yet seen these.
I should add that what I have now is a simple aquarium timer that I used for both my CO2 solenoid and my T5HO lighting. Very simple affair, with tabs for on and off....based on the water bath I achieved overnight, I'm trying 15 minutes "on" every hour, but still very unsatisfactory, I'm sure, as this makes no provision for actual RH level (saw your comment on total humidity, by the way). So it's a war between my itch to get started, and my natural punctilious bent with anything culinary.
Edit: Maybe should be on another thread, but intrigued by the story of Little Falls Farm, a case study in the Silvery Moon Creamery aging options report. They use, and are pleased, with the Coolbot. Their total refrigeration cost for a 1000 c.f. space was, at the time of writing, $650. The downside of the Coolbot, at least in the one instance I read it, seems to be the thing you and Linux mention - the high velocity of air flow over the cheese tends to make for a rather sterile environment. On the other hand, Little Falls mentions in the hottest part of their year, their AC runs a few minutes only every hour.
Complete noob question, I'm sure - but can one find a way to depend on passive, or only very mildly assisted, ventilation for air flow? Meaning, if depending on radiant cooling, for instance, in some way, could not a passive ventilation system provide the needed, mild air flow in a given cave?
Just wanted to add, I'm set to buy a humidistat, but of the ones you listed, Francois (at least the ones close to an acceptable price), the range was only up to 80%. Did you or anyone else have a suggestion on a humidistat ranging up to 95%, that wouldn't be in the several hundred$ range?
Edit: For instance, Zoo Med's Hygrotherm (http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/EntryDetail.php?EntryID=260&DatabaseID=2&SearchID=1) is available at under $100. Goes up to 95% RH, but concerned about how accurate the humidistat might be, though; anyone with any experience with these?
I just grabbed those off Google as examples, I didn't check them out closely. There is definitely a hydro-ponics one that goes up to 99%, I used to have it. It is a simple black metal box with some plugs on it for equipment. I'll have a better look and see if I can find it.
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 09, 2011, 08:08:08 PM
I just grabbed those off Google as examples, I didn't check them out closely. There is definitely a hydro-ponics one that goes up to 99%, I used to have it. It is a simple black metal box with some plugs on it for equipment. I'll have a better look and see if I can find it.
Francois, sorry, should have updated. I did see that you can get a Green Air relative humidity controller (http://www.planetnatural.com/site/xdpy/kb/relative-humidity-controller-rhc.html), which goes up to 100% (though they only attest accuracy up to 90%), but nothing on e-bay for now (only the Green Air Total Humidity Controller); new, the "RHC" was close to $300, so out of budget.
I ended up going with a Graco cool-mist (not US, but wick and fan system) programmable humidifer, per cartierusm's experience, which nominally goes to 90%. I had hoped for higher, but will go with this for now. We'll see how it goes.
Many thanks,
Paul
Fancy that, I just found it too. The RHC is what I had. I used it for some hot-rodded refrigerators that I ripened camemberts in. I think I got one or two of them from Farmtek on sale and the others off Ebay.
Definitely keeping my eyes peeled. Would love the higher %.
For what it's worth, Years ago I built a Root Cellar in my basement. Old farm house, 2 foot thick linestone walls, deep basement 8 foot ceilings. I selected a corner wall - L shaped and simply built another L shaped wall with a door. The door is from an old walk in type cooler. Busted through the limestone wall at grade level and put in Two plastic vent pipes. Built the walls six inches thick With insulation, ceiling has 12 inches insulation.
Left the original linestone walls as is, the two new walls inside where covered with cement board and sealed with potland cement.
Fitted the plastic pipes so as to have intake and exhaust air. And built some shelves.
High temps in Summer reach 59 -60F Winter Jan now is the coldest Lowest reading 47F
RH is always high year round. Never below 85% I could warm the room up this time of year by closing the vent pipes, But then I would lose air circulation. So far I've left the temp get as low as 47F (it's was -10 below zero outside last night) Most of the winter temps average in the mid 50's. The only hot month is August (Iowa can get hot and humid that time of year) Most of the year Temps run 51 to 57F
I feel I could regulate the temp more closely -- But I'm just getting started making cheese and all that will come in time.
It seems to me, this is a viable solution to having a cave. Most any home basement would have a place for a build. The hard part if I remember was busting through the stone wall to install vent pipes.
Thought I would share as I have found it's really not that expensive or difficult to build a larger walk in cave that works reasonably well. I would think materials would be around $250.00 - $300.00 at the most. Remember your only building two walls.
Regards: john
Quote from: FRANCOIS on January 06, 2011, 10:00:47 PM
It would be better to explain this face to face but I'll give it a try. From experience and natural cave measurements I have seen there are large volumes of slow moving, cool and moist air moving over the cheeses (soemwhere I have data from Roquefort). This is an ideal.
If you use a standard reefer or walk in cooler unit, these are designed to rapidly cool the contents without any concern for humidity. They blow high velocity air that is very dry around the room until it is cooled. If you install one of these and stack cheese in front of it you will very quickly find that your cheeses will dry and crack if the fan runs often enough, irrespective of overall humidity.
You will also have lots of pockets in the room if the fan cycles on intermittently and just blasts air.
So getting back to your question...if you slow the fan down on a regular refrigerant unit which is using nornal operating conditions the air stays longer on the coil. The refrigerant will cool the air down enough that it will get below dew point and water fill fall out of suspension, coating the refrigerant coil. When this happens that water freezes. Repeat this process a few minutes and you end up with a coil that is a solid block of ice. No air can pass through. All the while the thermostat is calling for cooling and the compressor is running. Next your compressor either pops out on thermal overload or fails altogether. The block of ice will then melt and create a giant mess on the floor and your cooler will warm up until you discover the problem.
Old thread - but Francois, if you're ever around:
Presuming an above-ground space with intense insulation, really well insulated. What would you say is the best cooling system? Radiant, ice water? I've learned in my small cave that I'm not a fan of trying to cool air, keep flow to that minimum you speak of, and good RH, along with uniform distribution of both temp and RH, with very little gradients. So while I do appreciate the coolbot and what it does, I'm already thinking of a better means to cool a cave. Any thoughts, very much appreciated.
Francois explained it perfectly. In answer to your earlier question I would guess that the "fog" in the video was generated by high pressure misting nozzels like this (http://www.prodew.com/products/humidification/procloud.php). I did a search and found several and apparently rely on very fine orifices, high water pressure (or some using a combination of water and air at lower pressures) to break the droplets into very fine (5 micron or so) particles that stay in suspension until it evaporates. I know you've been to your local high-end meat or produce up there in Madison where every now and then the food cabinets fills with fog. I actually have some nozzles in a set-up to run with a fan for evaporative cooling on hot days on the deck and runs on regular water pressure, but the droplets are bigger and if you stand in front of it you find religion (i.e. be "baptized" :)).
As for the ideal setting (other than a real cave) Consider Bardwell Farms in Vermont has caves specially built by Rust that use cooling water circulating in cement walls and don't rely on a/c and apparently keep humidity on target just with the cheeses.
Which leads back to the scourge of the A/C. I used to think that if there were some way to control coil temperature (CoolBot only checks for icing as I remember) so that it stays above dew point but below target but I don't know enough about refrigeration to do that. However, it makes since that if the volume of air going across the condensing coils increased, the delta T (temp of air in vs. out) should decrease. The A/C has a fan but it would be interesting see what would happen if you had a second (box?) fan blowing on the coils from inside the cave. The other thing I thought of is can you take the condensate from the A/C and pump it up to a wick in front of the air coming out into the cave and use the A/C like a BIG Cave Cube. Good luck in your endeavor to play the part of Petruchio in "Taming of the Shrew Cave" ;D
Thanks John. I know that Francois loves Agri-Misters and I am looking into those. I think his plant operates on all ultrasonics now. Completely subjective, but by my eyes the fog from that video is ultrasonic - has the almost bluish, smoke-like quality I associate with UH whereas I find misters a bit more mistlike. Have no idea, though, and you could be completely right.
On the pipes Consider uses, that's cool, I didn't know that. That's actually what I was thinking of when I mentioned the radiant cooling. I've seen systems with the pipeline running outside and along the walls, and know of systems where the pipeline runs inside the wall. Here (http://www.mons-fromages.com/sites/default/files/depliant-tunnel-gb/index.html), for instance. I designed it for the guy. 8) 1250 meters of radiant cooling stainless pipework. Amazing. Sounds ideal, my only question is on the issue of condensation on the pipes. But that seems a small price to pay for air-flowless cooling, and the only air flow needed can easily be calculated and implemented with dedicated venting, fans, etc.
Your a/c stuff is beyond me though I get it conceptually. That would be one very cool improvement. Well two, actually, with your wick and fan system married to such a thing!
OK, ugly.
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN2143_zps7238bb91.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/pkphotodo/media/DSCN2143_zps7238bb91.jpg.html)
Do not laugheth, says a guy who never played Petruchio. But loved Burton in the role. This was just tacked up and I moved and fixed the fans in different positions. Ultimately didn't work...but tried, man! ;D
Edit: I should say, it's right at 3:19 of the video, that I mean when I say, "blue smoke." Though I admit I've never looked as closely at the nozzle-fog coming from misters, as at ultrasonic fog.
Edit II: Pretty cool PDF (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cheesesociety.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F08%2F2014-PPT-Milhoua-So-You-Want-to-Build-a-Cheese-Cave-FINAL1.pdf&ei=CaM5VKaOOcKlyQSQ-4HADQ&usg=AFQjCNGPqCE0dcrK7kmZAfnqjh2hsSjxBw&sig2=GnNtfCgyzGKx4ht1M23lgQ&bvm=bv.77161500,d.aWw) on air-cheese interaction. It's pushing their system, but some interesting notions, I found, anyway.
Edit III: Did some digging, Areco (http://www.areco.fr/en/nebulisation-desinfection-affichage/industrie-ingenierie-nebulisation) might be the company handling Paccard's humidity system; though they list as "nebulizer" humidification I don't know what technology they actually use to nebulize. Are you able to tell, John? Is that a mister, or some other means to break up the water (say, like the Trion 707U)?
Edit IV (this might be it!): Just confirmed from Areco's site, this is exactly the system shown in that video. They list Paccard as one of their cheese clients and the very room from the video is featured in their cheese client photo gallery, "Système d'humidification par nébulisation Areco pour fromagerie Paccard."
Edit V: Nope, one more.
QuoteThis technology, nebulization, consists of fragmenting liquids (water, perfume or biocide) via a piezoelectric system to obtain an extremely fine mist (95% of the drops have a diameter of less than 5µm)
-that's ultrasonic, right? Piezoelectric element?
Edit VII: OK, if you all haven't thought I'm crazy by now, last edit, promise. Confirmed, it's not nozzle-misting technology:
QuoteDans le domaine de l'humidification, contrairement à la brumisation (aspersion via des buses de diffusion), la nébulisation générée par les humidificateurs Areco ne mouille pas ...
-Basically, if you don't read French anyone, they distinguish misting via diffusion nozzles, as in agri-misting, grocery stores, etc., from their nebulizing system; claiming that unlike the grocery misters, their system doesn't lead to wetting products. Can't vouch for whether that's a true distinction or not, as I've seen many descriptions of "dry fogging systems" that use atomizing nozzles, such as what John's talking about above.
This is infinitely fascinating to me. I don't know if such a system would be feasible at any but the most capitalized, high-end facility such as Paccard's...but must say, it looks beautiful. Jury rig such a thing, for a small farmstead producer?
Speaking of ultrasonics, here's a a cool DIY commercial ultrasonic mist maker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE)
6L per hour! Connect those exhaust holes to some PVC pipes with holes at intervals for the mist to come out, maybe even add a waterproof fan to help push out and you have yourself a humidifier that produces equal mist everywhere in the cave.
Eric, you may have found the holy grail of economical fogging :) and a cheese to you for passing it on. I made it halfway through your video link and said WHAT? Went to his website (http://www.thehouseofhydro.com/index.html) and these have a great cost vs. vapor generated ratio. I like the DIY concept too. Need to take some time to digest and maybe contact the supplier but it looks extremely interesting for potential solutions to Paul's and other "small to medium" sized caves.
Paul,
I just read this thread after replying to another -- I see that you are way ahead of my rambling thinking-out-loud about a radiant system, rather than forced air. But maybe the idea of a "cool wall" could still work ... I don't know how much heat transfer would be achieved by a narrow concrete block wall, but perhaps a wall constructed of stainless sheet would do the trick? Of course, aluminum would be far more efficient in transferring heat; don't know how well it would work for sanitation and cost.
Andy
Quote from: Spoons on October 11, 2014, 10:28:33 PM
Speaking of ultrasonics, here's a a cool DIY commercial ultrasonic mist maker.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHpCo_ZFgfE)
6L per hour! Connect those exhaust holes to some PVC pipes with holes at intervals for the mist to come out, maybe even add a waterproof fan to help push out and you have yourself a humidifier that produces equal mist everywhere in the cave.
Eric, thanks man, really intriguing company. Haven't had the time to look to closely yet, but looks very cool. Cheese to you my friend, will check it out!
Quote from: awakephd on October 12, 2014, 04:19:48 PM
Paul,
I just read this thread after replying to another -- I see that you are way ahead of my rambling thinking-out-loud about a radiant system, rather than forced air. But maybe the idea of a "cool wall" could still work ... I don't know how much heat transfer would be achieved by a narrow concrete block wall, but perhaps a wall constructed of stainless sheet would do the trick? Of course, aluminum would be far more efficient in transferring heat; don't know how well it would work for sanitation and cost.
Andy
Whoops! Sorry Andy, missed this. Replied in the other thread. Have you seen the Mons cave? Intense, with all that s/s tubing buried in the wall. And the Paccard video, that fog is absolutely beautiful. Both employ passive cooling and insulation, as well as small active cooling with radiant pipework only.
Pav has a notion of brick or block sandwiching air, and perhaps the icewater line in there makes sense? I'm afraid I am flatly ignorant to all things engineering, but I tend to be both monomaniacal about the interest du jour, as well as a decent learner so I'm really looking forward to thinking on this more. I love the idea of separating out needed air from cooling...so much better, it seems to me, than trying to get cold air and fog working together and not antagonistically.
I know I'm highjacking again, but just want to share the following findings on ultrasonic: Water temp is important. At 50F you won't get much results, so the water tank needs to be outside the cave, or in the cave but somehow warmed and insulated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8D-g9EPXXY&list=UUtZlAV1Rgr-n0giJCy4I4YA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8D-g9EPXXY&list=UUtZlAV1Rgr-n0giJCy4I4YA)
Eric, thanks, cool video. Don't know, makes sense, but here's mine at 52, for example:
(http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p316/pkphotodo/DSCN2145_zps45b13437.jpg) (http://s131.photobucket.com/user/pkphotodo/media/DSCN2145_zps45b13437.jpg.html)
Mine obviously have the reservoirs in the cave. I don't know what commercial folks do, who use UHs. Be interesting to see.
seedling mats around the water tanks?